FAST DOCTOR:

I have been having thyroid problems for many years and could not find a conventional doctor who seemed to believe there was a way to treat the thyroid other than hormone supplementation. I finally found a naturopath who does nothing but thyroid care and offers modalities that have increased thyroid function in some patients so I am working with him now.

I had my first consult with him last week. We were discussing the possibility that I may be gluten intolerant and I mentioned how I felt better after each water fast. He commented that may well indicate that I do have a food allergy because each fast rids my body of the offending substance. However, he also remarked that water fasting was very hard on my type of thyroid function.

I had many things to ask him and did not get back to this comment but will at my next consult. However, I realize he specializes in thyroids and not fasting. Can you imagine what he was referencing? My particular problem is extreme hypothyroidism resulting from Hashimotos.

Thanks,
Meditating

Hashimoto's disease is a simple malfunction of the immune system, where a part of your bone marrow "thinks" the Thyroid is a cancer or invading germ. It then makes antibodies to attack the thyroid. Sometimes these antibodies hyper-stimulate the thyroid, it becomes over-active and burns out. This appears to have happened to you, if I guess correctly..

When you fast you remove ALL "antigen" exposure from your body. That means, there are no external stimuli for the immune system that could cause it to make these mistakes. Now if your "wrong" immune response is settled in its ways, fasting is unlikely to help. BUT during a fast, as your blood sugar drops, your adrenal glands makes more CORTIZONE, an immune modulator. This could theoretically help "calm down" the inappropriate response.

I would definitely employ fasting as part of the regimen to try reversing your disease, but there will of course not be any guarantee. If the process is too far gone, it will not be possible to reverse it.

Please don't lose heart: I have often said that if a court were to sentence me to taking a medicine every day, I would choose Thyroxine (T4).. it is about the only synthetic medicine that is atom for atom identical to the hormone your body (the thyroid) makes. It is not a very active hormone, but your body can turn it into its more active form (T3) by removing one of the 4 Iodine atoms from the molecule.. thus even though you would be taking a synthetic hormone, your body maintains some control over the ultimate activity.

This is of course the "worst case scenario" and I do hope that fasting, regular proper detoxificaiton treatments, a vegan or at least vegetarian diet and the Naturopath's methods can all combine to resolve your disease. I mention vegan because any animal food can contain a bit of animal thyroid hormone, which could perhaps trigger your inappropriate immune response to your own thyroid..

André

Thanks for your reply. I am overrun with work right now and have follow-up questions, but also want to think about the situation for awhile. Thanks again.

FAST DOCTOR:

Had a little time this morning and thought about my thyroid all night. I have several questions:

1. Is it your belief that the thyroid can burn out, meaning it becomes unable to manufacture hormones? I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you meant the thyroid has a certain amount of hormone to make just as you believe our bodies are capable of processing a certain amount of nutrition over a lifetime.

2. If my thyroid burned out, wouldn't I have periods of hyperthyroidism and all the attending symptoms? Even as a child I don't think that happened, so in the alternative, could the thyroid be impaired such that it can no longer produce adequate or any hormone?

3. Is it possible that the antigen is manufactured by my body or something in my body rather than something I eat?

I have been on thyroid medication for 30 years so this is something I knew about but never knew why. However, in the last 15 years, since my accident, my thyroid medication has had to increase quite a bit with a recent increase of 50%. I am not all that hopeful that I can resurrect my thyroid, but I want to try.

What type of fasting protocol is recommended to target this specific issue? Is something that would benefit from fasting until natural hunger returns?

As always, thanks for your insight.

Hi. I'll try to generate some satisfactory responses:

1. Is it your belief that the thyroid can burn out, meaning it becomes unable to manufacture hormones?

This is possible but unlikely, as many people have perfectly normal thyroid function for a lifetime after up to 80% of their gland has been removed, for reasons such as overactivity or tumours. More commonly "burn out" is the result of damage by toxic factors, infection or auto-immunity.


2. If my thyroid burned out, wouldn't I have periods of hyperthyroidism and all the attending symptoms?

IF the cause of the "burnout" is auto-antibodies (Such as Graves' disease) sometimes we find that the antibodies that ultimately destroy the gland initially hyper-stimulate it.. it could be that these make the gland work so hard that it burns out.

3. Is it possible that the antigen is manufactured by my body or something in my body rather than something I eat?

Actually this is the most likely cause.. the antibody is made in your own bone marrow in response to stimulus by an antigen. The orthodox medical theory is that the bone marrow made a mistake and considered your own thyroid to be an antigen. I doubt this. Animal thyroid is much more likely to be a stimulus because it is obviously not your own.. But once the bone marrow has been "programmed" to identify thyroid tissue as an antigen, then your own thyroid tissue often indeed becomes the antigen to perpetuate the mistake.

After 30 years of not having to work, it is possible that there's just no thyroid tissue left.. Think for example of the situation if you splint a limb for 30 years.. there would be almost no muscle left!

But the fact that you recently had to increase the dosage can only mean that there must have been SOME functional thyroid tissue left which is now deteriorating. This might be partly due to the stress of the accident, or re-activation of that part of the bone marrow that produces the abberant antibodies.

Remember you will never need to replace more than 100% of what your own thyroid was supposed to make. Thus there's always a ceiling of dosage.

This is one situation where I would consider prolonged fasting as you suggest to be more effective than regular intermittent episodes although I would still consider it indicated to do the weekly day of fasting in between longer fasts..

Best wishes again.

Andr´

Excellent thread, addresses so many questions. Went to an endocrinologist within the US who literally charged me facilities fee included $450 for 20 minutes to tell me that I simply have hypothyroidism and there's no alternative approach to management other than watch and wait and only upon prompting subject of diet and exercise did she acknowledge "it couldn't hurt".

Anyway, Dr. you really have addressed questions I've been researching for a long time.

Re: the animal food trigger, I was drinking a ton of milk (4-10 glasses a day) and feel that the heavy milk ocnsumption may have triggered it. There is also a family history but methinks tha that the women in my family that went on replacement went on it too soon and did not attempt weight loss.

Studies show a mere 7 pound weight loss can reverse hypothyroidism and thyroid studies show normalized results.

Bear in mind that some milk is also very rich in Iodine. Now although the thyroid needs iodine to function, too much iodine actually suppressed the thyroid (feedback mechanism) and can lead to hypothyroidism. Make sure you get enough Iodine but equally important make sure you don't get too much.

I have seen a patient revert from Myxedema (Very severe underactive, almost UNactive thyroid) to normal after a few fasts.. the exact mechanism is not clear but it is likely to do with detoxification. So please make sure you combine your fasting with detox activities!

André

Thank you, Andre! That's truly inspiring! We don't use iodized salt because much of it has a form of aluminum in it to make it flow better and we fear toxicity from that. Also, I question water fluoridation and suspect artificial sweeteners. When looking for causes of low thyroid function, there are articles suggesting everything can be a cause, including GMO food.

I wasn't planning on taking any vitamins or herbal supplements during my fast and this may sound naive, but I'm not sure what "detox activities" to partake in. Are you referring to exercise, enemas? I have been walking a mile a day, but yesterday, my energy level was very low. Much better today. I have kelp supplements but I was hoping to use the fast to just detox via ketosis and then, start back in on the Atkin's diet when I finish.

You are very kind to provide so much invaluable information. I can not tell you how hard I looked for information on this subject only to find a mere reference suggesting weight loss of 7 pounds might revert hypothyroidism. So many women I know in their late 20's to early 30's have this condition and immediately go on medication, which is fine because as you point out it is atom for atom the same as endogenous product... but ....

the thyroid so centrally regulates many other processes that I would rather not have to take the therapy because well, hay, the human body is amazing and it knows best what it needs to do if left to its own devices, .... usually.

CAROLINAQ - So glad to see you here. Do you mind sharing your source for weight loss helping reverse hypothyroidism? I have searched and read so much on this topic but I have not encountered that recommendation and I would certainly like to read about and evaluate it.

Thanks,
MEDITATING

Meditating, this is going to sound lame but I was searching like a manic woman for any natural way to reverse the disorder and I have tried in the last hour to retrace my steps and did pubmed and goodle scholar searches and have not stumbled upon the reference. So let's just call it anecdotal at this point since my recollection does not serve me well. In my search this evening, I read about many accounts who lost weight and then, regained it due to low thyroid function. SO I just don't know what to think but certainly, diet is important as is lowering overall body inflammation. THyroiditis is just that. Fasting from what I read is a mechanism to reduce overall inflammation. I'm terribly sorry to be so sloppy in my presentation, but I just can't recollect what I was reading and therefore, will default to the idea that it must have been anecdotal and lacking scientific peer-reviewed evidence.

What did you end up doing... did you do the week fast or the 21 day fast?

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Caroline

Dear CarolineQ, with elimination adctivities I refer as so many times before on these forums to

www.fastingconnection.com/water-fasting/five-step-detox-cycle

I most definitely do NOT recommend enemas, which I consider unhealthy and unaesthetic and reserve for the exceptional situation of impaction or preparation for surgery.

Years ago when I met with dr Atkins, we had to agree to disagree. I can definitely not recommend a high protein diet, as this tend to put all your body proteins (muscles, organs, collagen) in the "firing line", making them prone to breakdown. Remember that during catabolism your body would typically "go for" the kind of substances it is used to break down (Digest).

BUT if the worst comes to the worst, thyroxine is generally a safe supplement: It contains only T4, the less active Thyroid hormone. Your body still has the choice how much to convert to the more active T3, thus it maintains at least some control. So please don't fear thyroid "replacement" should it really prove necessary, for example if the TSH is jut persistently too high.

André

Thank you!

It makes physiological sense that Atkins Diet would put muscle, organs, and collagen at risk... I will rethink my refeeding approach.

Just tried your suggested elimination activities and it's amazing how much more vibrant I feel after 18 minutes of stairmaster (HR between 144 - 168; target 163), 7 minutes in a hot shower, and an equal amount of time under a cold shower, and now, resting. I did "massage" my fat while exercising by squeezing it every 2-3 minutes.

My fat zones don't feel like they do after a long non-fasting workout(45 minutes to 1.5 hour aerobic workout on the stairmaster at HR 144-168). With a long workout, it's almost as if I can feel a shrinkage and a... hard to put words to it... itchy shrinky feeling in the adipose tissues - as if it's truly undergoing hydrolysis. The tissues this morning felt more resistant to squeezing and it makes me wonder if I'm dehydrated.

After long non-fasting workout, I also occassionally smell ammonia emanating from my scalp when I shower. I perceived this this morning with only 18 minutes of exercise.

I'm taking my qieus from thirst but today, I'm going to start drinking more, at least 2 liters today. I wake up with a dry mouth but my urine output is good (3-4 times daily). While we are on outputs, no BM's. But I usually only go after a large carb meal anyway. When I was running 8 miles a day in the late 90's I wouldn't go at all, as if everything I put in my mouth was being utilized by the body. So I'm not at all worried about output 2.

COntemplating a visit with my doctor to do lab tests.

Tonight 10 PM will mark 7 days without food so I guess, THIS is really my sixth day. I felt so much better yesterday than the day before and even better this morning, especially after the exercise.

I had no physical activities on Monday and couldn't sleep Monday or Tuesday night. I think I had restless legs ... I wonder if this is really a myo(muscle)-catabolic response. I've always noticed that when my muscles are in a state of atrophy, my legs feel tremendously restless and I just want to move, nature's response likely to preserve precious tissues.

Last night, after reading your post on exercising to signal the body to preserve the muscle, I did some lunges, pelvic lifts, quad exercises and calf raises. This calmes my legs down. I also did abs. But it was only in all about 20 minutes of floor exercises. Still consistent with my theory in the above paragraph. Had some good REM sleep as well... prolly 4-6 hours of sleep time which is normal for me, non-fasting (hey, I have a toddler who wakes 2-3 times nightly.

I will be buying your book... I can't believe how fortunate the lot of us are to have you here on the site responding to our individualized inquiries... you are really a blessing!

Thank you!

Caroline

I wonder how many "cycles" of the 5-step program one might partake in per day... and how long should the exercise ensue? I am quite sure I could do more than 18 minutes at the recommended HR... I'm thinking I might attempt a twice daily regimen. What is dry brushing (bachache thread)? Is it essentially just brushing the skin? That seems easy.

Hi Dr. Kruger,

I just found the answer to my question on cycles/day === two.

In reading Health Won, I noticed gout could be precipitated by fasting. So interesting because on one of the early days of my fast 1-3, I had symptoms in my big toe. They disappeared after about 24 hours... but it's all so interesting... Also, in reading Health Won, I found the section on depression (4.2) fascinating. The idea that the brain's chemistry is rewired for the better is just interesting...

When you suggest neurotransmission is changed with fasting, what are you referring to specifically?

Thanks!

Thanks for the interesting points. You mention inter alia the "ammonia smell". One of the great tragedies towards the end of the second World War was, when the Allied forces liberates some concentration camps and, thinking they do the poor, starving inmates a favour, gave them meat. Many died from ammonia poisoning: When your body uses protein as a source of energy, it releases ammonia. With good liver function and lots of reserve, this can be turned into urea which the kidneys can eliminate. But when the body is so starved it will break down all available sources back to carbohydrate .. releasing the nitrogen which turns into ammonia more quickly than it can be converted to urea.

And yes, neurotransmission is changed, as Ketones are excellent membrane stabilizers, helping modulate the electrical charges over cell membranes.

How many cycles per day? If you are bored, do another one!

André

Very interesting regarding the ammonia. I even smelled it again this afternoon during a lunch walk of only 1.5 miles. Would you consider the ammonia smell a sign that I'm burning a lot of muscle? My lean body mass continues to drop as I age and I know "happy weight" is a moving target as a result.

Bear in mind that the olfactory nerves are designed to "accommodate" a persistent odour so that you can detect a change or a new one.. so first make sure this IS ammonia.. for example, carry a well sealed container of ammonia then when you get this smell, compare it to that of the container proven to have ammonia in it..

Ammonia is a PROTEIN breakdown product.. muslces is but one form of protein and if you use them, they are less likely to be broken down. Of course breaking down SOME proteins is not all bad.. it makes place for new, fresh proteins to take their place.

André

Thank you! The smell didn't persist today... and I'm feeling great... used a hair brush with firm bristles last night to massage my body while stairmastering and I think it did the trick better than hand massage.

Skipped this routine this morning, regrettably. However, I've noticed some new symptoms/benefits of fasting:

1) I have this strange cyst in my arm fold that may be shrinking, though not sure.
2) minor muscle spasms... I have had these whenever I work out on a low calorie diet, usually in the back of my calves, but last night after my workout, they occurred in areas around my hips, so I think the rear is beginning to become a target, yahoo!
3) sleeping normally now (as if I weren't even fasting), but requiring 2-3 hours less sleep.

Yay!

Caroline

1. I have indeed seen long standing abscesses and cysts shrinking during fasting, even totally disappearing. But any unusual lump in or on your body should be examined by a doctor, just to make sure..

2. It will be good to lose where you want to.. but remember you exercise MUSCLE and likely want to lose FAT.. the latter is attached to the skin, so it is targeted by massage rather than exercise. Exercise tends to BUILD muscle, which could theoretically see an increase in size.. that's why I suggest that:
* On eating days you exercise where you want to add and
* On fasting days you massage where you want to lose.
You still need some exercise on fasting days of course.. to burn the fat you massaged into the blood, else it will simply be re-deposited.
Your pains more likely indicate that you are starting to use muscles that were not tyupically used before.. they now need to get fit.

3. Some people "catch up" on sleep time when they fast, other on wake time.. this depends a bit on your personality type, whether you "took an overdraft" on your "wake account" or on your "sleep account"..

Your enthusiasm makes my day.

André

Thanks Andre, I'm thrilled you like my enthusiasm. It is a pretty cool feeling knowing I've not eating for 7.5 days and I don't really feel the need to. The skin on my stomach is starting to crinkle a bit where I've lost some mass and I'm OK with that, because my abs are revealing themselves again!

I wouldn't call the spasms painful... it's an involuntary twitch and the location of the twitches last night and this morning seems to concentrate in the adipose. I know that sounds weird and I've conversed with loved ones about it and wonder if it's just somehow my fat being penetrated by water to soften it and prepare it for extraction.