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Ketosis as alternative source of energy
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TOPIC: Ketosis as alternative source of energy

Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 4 months ago #163

  • David
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Ketosis is an alternative fuel for the brain using the body's fat stores for energy rather than simple and complex carbohydrates, which is believed to have some advantages over deriving energy through carbohdrates. Without going into all the details of why ketosis might be a more favorable source of fuel, is it possible to achieve ketosis while not on a water fast?

By this I mean by possibly following a very low carbohydrate diet which remains below the pancreas' 'detectable' threshold.
Every Saint has a past and every sinner has a future
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 3 months ago #180

To some extent ketones are actually used all the time.. you don't need a \"very low carbohydrate diet\". Whenever you burn up your available carbohydrates (blood sugar and liver glycogen) your body \"looks\" for alternatives. The most logical alternative is protein (such as organs or muscles) so we need to protect these. To this end I recommend a low protein diet (so the body does not \"consider\" protein an energy source, but a structural material) and load a bit of fat before every fast.

If you burn off your blood sugar with some exercise, you do indeed start burning fat also, particularly if your (Physical) activity \"signals\" to the body that the muscles has uses other than being fuel. (This is why physical activity is important during a fast.)

Most (active) people probably burn ketones for up to a few hours some days, even when not fasting: Whenever the blood sugar is \"used up\" and not immediately replaced, one can convert to fats. No marathon athlete can complete a run without digging into these reserves, so they all eventually go ketotic. Regular fasting ensures that the mechanism for breaking down fat into ketones remains active (\"on standby\") all the time and ketosis can \"kick in\" on short notice, so the \"switch over\" is much easier and happens smoothly.

André
All my posts are based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 3 months ago #206

  • wiseaerial
Hello,
I like the expression \"the switch over happens smoothly\" because I noticed that \"feeling\" many times. After fasting, the body knows how to go to the \"fat\" phase much easier than after eating and even exercising. It is very smooth, and there is no feeling of cravings or pain.
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 3 months ago #209

  • Andrew
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I have only just started studying the actual chemical changes produced in fasting. One thing that has occurred to me is that ketones in a pregnant woman's urine is seen as a sign of their health being in danger. I wonder if the opposite could be true, and if the body is always trying to feed the growing baby from our stores, possibly at times when vital organs are being grown etc. I am reminded of an article I read recently describing how some lizards when growing their tails back will fast until it is done. Also tadpoles will devour their tails while fasting in the process of transformation, and of course caterpillars can eat nothing new while they are transforming into butterflies. There is also the matter of repairing tissues efficiently while fasting, which in nature is the norm. Wouldn't creating a new life be the ultimate in the transformation of our flesh using ketones?

Maybe the diet pre-pregnancy is of far more importance than the doctors who have you test for ketones would suspect. And that it is just as important for a pregnant woman to draw on their own body stores to create the new life inside them as it is for them to eat well during their pregnancy. Maybe more important even, maybe they shouldn't be increasing their intake of food by much at all, rather allowing the actual baby to be created mostly from stores built up in the seasons before the pregnancy. In this way the body may have more control over the quality of nutrients and going to the baby rather than relying on having perfect nutrition during the pregnancy- which in nature may not always be possible. Animals will respond to an abundant season with more offspring, obviously consuming more and building stores in their bodies. They cannot obviously see to the future and predict a good harvest with which to feed their pregnant bodies or newborns. I doubt many pregnant animals would be taking the trouble to double their iron intake.

If this was meant to be the case then in a pregnant mother at least ketones and glucose could well be working together or alternating regularly a lot quicker than we would see under the usual fasting rules.

Andrew.
\\"Truth is often painful, but ignorance is never bliss.\\"
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 3 months ago #237

You are SO right, Andrew.. should we \"build babies\" from dead animals (meat), cooked vegetables, or.. real human tissues?

Ketones has a \"bad\" name amongst my colleagues because they have often just \"heard the bell ring\" that when the cells does not receive enough sugar, you will form ketones.. and they tend to forget this is perfectly normal and natural, UNLESS you have HIGH blood sugar at the SAME time (Then the blood becomes hyper-osmolar).

Congratulations on a very well composed post Andrew!

André
All my posts are based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 2 months ago #285

  • David
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Thank you Dr Kruger and Andrew for your stimulating posts!

I trust someone will be able to shed some light on a point which I feel is crucial in understanding the \"ketone as alternative fuel\" debate.

I though I had a reasonable grasp on what ketones where until reading an article from Diabetes UK

\"In the short term, consistent high blood glucose levels can lead to a condition called diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). This happens because of a lack of glucose entering the cells where it can be used as energy. The body begins to use stores of fat as an alternative source of energy, and this in turn produces an acidic by-product known as ketones.\"

One could easily assume from the previous posts in this topic, that ketones and one's body's supply of fat were one and the same thing, however the above quote suggests that ketones are in fact a by-product of the body breaking down bodily fats for fuel. Is there a double meaning to the word Ketosis namely a) breaking down of fat and b) acidic by-product of breaking down fat? or more than likely there is a wide gap in my knowledge of physiology and need this topic 'dumbed down', or have I simply not read the posts correctly?

Very grateful for all your efforts.

David
Every Saint has a past and every sinner has a future
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 4 years, 2 months ago #299

This quote from Diabetes UK is an eye-opener. It seems as if even at this esteemed institution there are no one understanding basic energy metabolism. When fat (triglycerides) breaks down to be used as energy, it forms 4 baic molecules:

1. Glycerol (3 carbons in a row) and
2. the 3 major ketones.

The glycerol can\"come together\" in pairs to form glucose (blood sugar) but more than 80% of the energy from fat takes the form of ketones. So to call it a by-product is a real stretch of the imagination.

Yes ketones are weak organic acids in their own way, but these are buffered by the blood proteins (also made up of acids: Amino acids). If the pH of the blood falls from 7.4 to 7.3 we do get worried; I have succesfully resuscitated only one patient whose pH fell below 7.0; this was 6.9. So acidosis can be dangerous.

BUT a well body forms only enough ketones to supply the needs of energy in the cells. Fasting on its own will therefore NOT cause dangerous keto-acidosis.

Where the diabetologists' concern comes from, is the fact that their patients forms ketones while there's still a lot of glucose in the blood. This is because the glucose can't reach the inside of the cells, either due to lack of insulin (type 1) or insulin receptors (type 2). The cells therefore gets a false message that there's not enough sugar, and sends signals \"ordering\" ketones. When these arrive, the mixture of high sugar plus ketones then \"sucks\" water from the cells which is the big danger.

This will not happen in non-diabetics. With good supervision this need not happen in diabetics either.

So there's mis-information based on inappropriately/incorrectly interpreted information even in high circles..

André
All my posts are based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 3 years, 1 month ago #1682

Interesting discussion - the concept of creating new life off of energy reserves. I am four months pregnant. And I have fasted off and on over the last 11 years. And I will say - I feel like I need one now! In the first trimester, I found I didn't eat much. I was more tired than anything. Now in the second trimester - I am eating everything. Interestingly enough, I'm not hungry - ever. My stomach is so squished by the growing baby, and I really feel uncomfortable. Your bowels slow down, too (supposidely to allow time for the baby to utilize nutrients). So I'm eating - but it's not "cravings" like you hear women get. I think it's more emotional (nerves, stress from work, finances, etc., baby). And probably a bit of "I have no control over my body any more - so what's the point". I have wanted to fast - but everything I read says it is not good for pregnant women. I'm rather well educated, and really listen to my body. So I am inclined to believe that if I went on a "liquid diet" (while still taking my supplements) as opposed to a full-on fast, I'd be fine. And get the rest my body needs!! Intuitively, I feel like this is what I should do - because eating is not helping me feel good! I wouldn't go nuts - 3 to 5 days max. I need to bring some balance back - physically and emotionally. Any thoughts, advice most welcome...

P.S. I had a docotor's visit week 13. They did find ketones in my urine. It was a 3pm appointment, and I hadn't eaten since the previous day. I actually felt pretty good.

Regina
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Re:Ketosis as alternative source of energy 3 years, 1 month ago #1683

Regina, listening to your body is always good advice. But now you have 2 bodies, and the little one inside might not have full on communication with your mind. So be careful.

But think of this: Do you want to "build your baby" from only the best "materials"? Then what's better than parts of yourself? This is ultimately what happens. You only build a few grams of baby per day, and there's thousands of grams of you. As long as your blood protein levels are reasonable, there's more than enough materials to assemble the new human. So forcing yourself to eat serves no function.

I dislike "supplements" and see them in exactly the same light as other drugs like antibiotics and antidepressants.. only good for sick people. In the middle of the worst famines we see normal babies born. There's a theoretical risk of folic acid deficiency in the Western world due to the processing of food.. but you can have your blood levels measured, and eating a bit of leafy foods is often adequate.

The notorious "hyperemesis gravidarum" (Nausea of pregnancy) is likely the body informing you that it is doing some critical building work and wants nothing from outside..

Short fasts (less than 3-5 days) are VERY unlikely to cause a problem, provided you are well hydrated and feel good. And a "liquid diet" can be more than adequate: Bear in mind many good "solid" foods are liquids by the time they reach your stomach..

Ketones simply means you are burning fat.. which is no problem unless you have high blood sugar at the same time. Most pregnant girls end up with more fat at the end of a pregnancy anyway.

Don't force yourself either way. If you decide to fast for a while, check your pulse rate (and if you can, your baby's) for unexplained increases. Look at food (even fruit juice is a food) regularly, asking yourself if you really need it and if the answer is yes, don't resist just to make a point. But don't force it on yourself just to make a point either.

How about a whole new topic to follow your pregnancy on this site?

André
All my posts are based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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