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TOPIC: The Big Coffee debate

The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 13:09 #12774

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As there are a number of water fasters who also drink coffee during a fast we have started a new topic which specifically addresses the matter. Some posts have been imported from different topic threads so don't worry if there is a slight muddle. :)


David wrote:
It's fascinating to me that caffeine opens your fat cells and gets the fatty acids out. I've never read this anywhere before. Much appreciated.

ChelseaGirl we normally advise against coffee on these forums so I would really appreciate it if you could give the source of that above info as I doubt many have heard of that and there is no way to comment on it unless we have the source.

Hi David - thanks for your question. Coffee and green tea cause sustained and powerful fat loss. I had to pay £32 for the complete info but here's some of it (extracts) for free:

- "Obesity reviews" 2011
- PubMed ID 21366839

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.14...011.00862.x/abstract

www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/ebm/reco...on:_a_meta_analysis_

www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/ebm/rela...on:_a_meta_analysis_

I hope this helps!
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science." - Albert Einstein
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 17:01 #12782

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Indeed dear Chelsea, I bought the entire unboundmedicine library years ago.. many of these facts are old news. One problem is that we don't really know the long term effects. Sometimes, when you "burn fat", the free fatty acids enter the circulation and is available to pack up outside the cells... for example under the lining of the coronary arteries!

I tend to always percolate down to what was natural in our natural environment. Our genes have not really changed meaningfully since before the invention of all these food processing equipment like roasting.. a process known to form carcinogens.

André
All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 17:28 #12784

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I agree, Doc. The free fatty acids need to go somewhere (used or eliminated), just like when we are fasting...

That's the reason why the TIMING of caffeine intake (black tea, green tea, coffee) is crucial.

From my research, I have concluded that caffeine is a SAFE and excellent fat burner in the following scenarios:

a) In the morning without food/milk/sugar/insulin spike (morning peak metabolism combined with the fasted state: we use the free fatty acids released).
b) Before intense exercise (again, the free fatty acids will be used).
c) Before a cold bath/shower.
d) Before your 5 Step Elimination Cycle.


Conversely, if you combine caffeine with food/milk/sugar (glucose/fructose), the insulin spike is higher than when eating your food alone. You'll actually end up storing MORE fat than when not having the caffeine. There are numerous medical studies (mainly on diabetics) around this one.

Very interesting topic!
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science." - Albert Einstein
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 18:28 #12788

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Excellent insight, dear Chelsea, I will, with your implied permission, integrate this thinking about caffeine in my own philosophies.

André
All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 20:46 #12790

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I would be honoured, Doc!

As always, thank you for being so generous with your knowledge and time. You make a big difference in our lives... and health!
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science." - Albert Einstein
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 22:44 #12792

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Excellent insight, dear Chelsea, I will, with your implied permission, integrate this thinking about caffeine in my own philosophies.

Can you elaborate on which part of the 'correct timing' coffee formula you endorse Doctor so that I can rubber stamp it and move it to the FAQ ?
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 22:52 #12793

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Chelsea Girl wrote:
Excellent links.
I had this one saved. It's a full version. It should be the same as the 2nd link Chels listed:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j....a9b7ef291e039dc939e8
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The Big Coffee debate 29 Sep 2012 23:06 #12795

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@Fast doctor
The study points out that both caffeine only mixtures and catechin-caffeine increased daily energy expenditure. I guess this only applies if the consumption increases HR (as it normally should since it's a stimulating drink, no?). I remember the discussion on this topic earlier..

"catechin-caffeine mixtures increased fat oxidation as well, in contrast to caffeine-only which did not yield a significant effect on fat oxidation."
@Chelsea: Why would you drink coffee before taking a cold shower to assume it's safe? Or, say, in cold weather? Just wondering.
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The Big Coffee debate 30 Sep 2012 02:27 #12797

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I guess in the modern world we don't have the stress induced by being attacked by a predator each time before we do exercise. Thus our stress hormones are not released in preparation for such exercise. Caffeine apparently do that in its own way, which might explain the benefits of caffeine early in the day and in anticipation of for example a run, a cold shower or any other event that would normally be considered stressful in Nature.. events we/our genetic ancestors would not embark upon spontaneously but only when forced into it by circumstances.

André
All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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The Big Coffee debate 01 Dec 2012 00:08 #13981

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Ockeghem- When you say you drink coffee is that okay to do while fasting? What about a decaf Americano from Starbucks? When I water fast I have always just drank water. However, I am intrigued by having a cup of decaf coffee or tea.. What is your take? What is your reaction when you do it? If there is anywhere on the boards where I can read about it would you post a link? Hows your fast going?
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The Big Coffee debate 01 Dec 2012 04:05 #13986

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lovesolvesall wrote:
Ockeghem- When you say you drink coffee is that okay to do while fasting? What about a decaf Americano from Starbucks? When I water fast I have always just drank water. However, I am intrigued by having a cup of decaf coffee or tea.. What is your take? What is your reaction when you do it? If there is anywhere on the boards where I can read about it would you post a link? Hows your fast going?

Lovesolvesall,

One of the posters who was here long before me (Chelsea Girl) as well as The Fast Doctor have not said that black coffee is not okay to do while fasting. I know The Fast Doctor doesn't put anything other than water into his system while fasting, but Chelsea Girl said that the coffee helped to give her metabolism a 'jump start' as far as burning and/or metabolizing fat was concerned.

I don't know about decaf, as I don't drink that at all. But my take on drinking coffee during a fast is positive, as I've been doing this for years and feel no negative effects/reactions whatsoever.

My fast is going very well. I am completing my ninth day as I write this. Thanks for asking, and I wish you the best with your continued fasting. :)
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The Big Coffee debate 01 Dec 2012 12:04 #13989

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I don't think the Doctor would endorse coffee while fasting in any shape or form and neither would any other Natural Hygienists. However my take is that we are also so uniquely different in the way our body chemistry works, if drinking unsweetened black coffee during a fast makes the difference between fasting and not fasting then I believe it is OK. However there are reasons other than accelerated fat mobilisation that would cause people to be attached to coffee during a fast. Coffee is a strong drug and the detox symptoms when giving up coffee are quite unpleasant usually resulting in bad headaches. Drink coffee and the symptoms disappear. Where one has to be a bit careful is when using the mobilising fat argument to justify hanging on to a die hard habit, along with the associated neuro-toxins. Lets face it to consume coffee while making every effort to be healthy is counter intuitive. However don't get me wrong I am not trying to be holier than thou ( which I am of course.....just kidding) as I have my own tea drinking habits to nip in the bud, but rather just urging one to be vigilant and honest as to the real reasons for choosing to hang on to coffee during a fast.

That was my last lecture for 2012 :) have fantastic December.
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The Big Coffee debate 01 Dec 2012 14:28 #13995

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David wrote:
I don't think the Doctor would endorse coffee while fasting in any shape or form and neither would any other Natural Hygienists. However my take is that we are also so uniquely different in the way our body chemistry works, if drinking unsweetened black coffee during a fast makes the difference between fasting and not fasting then I believe it is OK. However there are reasons other than accelerated fat mobilisation that would cause people to be attached to coffee during a fast. Coffee is a strong drug and the detox symptoms when giving up coffee are quite unpleasant usually resulting in bad headaches. Drink coffee and the symptoms disappear. Where one has to be a bit careful is when using the mobilising fat argument to justify hanging on to a die hard habit, along with the associated neuro-toxins. Lets face it to consume coffee while making every effort to be healthy is counter intuitive. However don't get me wrong I am not trying to be holier than thou ( which I am of course.....just kidding) as I have my own tea drinking habits to nip in the bud, but rather just urging one to be vigilant and honest as to the real reasons for choosing to hang on to coffee during a fast.

That was my last lecture for 2012 :) have fantastic December.

David,

I think that what you've said is balanced. You know I've discussed my heart rate being no different when I give up coffee, and that this is important to me. I also find that consuming black coffee adds a little variety to drinking just water during a fast. I believe that Chelsea Girl gave some fairly convincing arguments which matched my experience with regard to coffee not being nearly as negative as some in the nutritional circles might have us believe. A couple of doctors I speak to regularly (doctors I consulted with when I began fasting) have told me that they believe that consuming it can actually be physiologically beneficial in some ways. And of course, I have not found it to have any negative or adverse effects upon my fasting or my running. It could very well be that consuming coffee as I do (whether fasting or not) is fine for me, given that each of us are, as you say, "uniquely different in the way our body chemistry works."
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The Big Coffee debate 01 Dec 2012 15:03 #13998

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I think that what you've said is balanced. You know I've discussed my heart rate being no different when I give up coffee, and that this is important to me. I also find that consuming black coffee adds a little variety to drinking just water during a fast. I believe that Chelsea Girl gave some fairly convincing arguments which matched my experience with regard to coffee not being nearly as negative as some in the nutritional circles might have us believe. A couple of doctors I speak to regularly (doctors I consulted with when I began fasting) have told me that they believe that consuming it can actually be physiologically beneficial in some ways. And of course, I have not found it to have any negative or adverse effects upon my fasting or my running. It could very well be that consuming coffee as I do (whether fasting or not) is fine for me, given that each of us are, as you say, "uniquely different in the way our body chemistry works."

I agree with you Ockeghem, however I would also like to highlight the fact that you are not your run-of-the-mill person due to your marathon running so you may be able to burn off any negative side effects of consuming coffee much more effectively than other less athletic fasters. Also I would really like to avoid people getting the impression that we endorse 'the coffee fast' especially as one could easily reach the conclusion that it is healthy to drink coffee while fasting because of the positive reports on coffee enemas. What I suggest is that we start a new topic thread on the pros and cons of drinking coffee during a fast and invite as many people as possible to participate. One thing I have noticed over the 7 years of running this site is that this coffee theme keeps on cropping up.
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The Big Coffee debate 01 Dec 2012 23:47 #14018

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I welcome you all to join in this discussion.
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The Big Coffee debate 02 Dec 2012 06:44 #14023

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It's really interesting. I'm about to start my first fast in December. And by the end of this threat I will make up my mind if I will drink one cup of coffee in the morning. I'm also curious what you guys think of Tea, and more the amount of Coffee and Tea that will be consumed. Is it more like, one cup in the morning or is it consumed thruout the day. That could make some difference.

I have read that liqourice tea can give you high blood pressure. Even that is has nu calories it has influence on you.

(I don't have the intention to change the subject, then i will stick my first question, the frecuency of the coffee or Tea)
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The Big Coffee debate 02 Dec 2012 10:21 #14026

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(I don't have the intention to change the subject, then i will stick my first question, the frecuency of the coffee or Tea)

As far as I know Ubercute there are no official tea or coffee fasts as such so there are no set rules for when to consume coffee or how often. I think Ockeghem got it right when he said he is not fasting he is off of solid foods. A TRUE definition of a fast or lets say according to Natural Hygienists and The Fast Doctor is just water or no water and no food. That would be a dry fast. If you are confused by what is Natural Hygiene it is a form of Nature Cure but without the use of herbs etc. Natural Hygienist practitioners resort to fasting and other natural practices such as sun baths, fresh air, quality sleep etc. Worth reading up on as they have a lot of wisdom and in depth knowledge of healing. I wonder if you can find one in Dutch?
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The Big Coffee debate 03 Dec 2012 17:13 #14037

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I've done 3 longer term fasts (over a week) and found that having black coffee or green tea in the morning got me past times when I was at risk of eating. (That and a large glass of water.)

I too am concerned its not really as good a fast as having nothing but water, but the positives of the fast were there- Dont know if they may have been diminished by the consumption of coffee though, because I've yet to make that happen!
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The Big Coffee debate 03 Dec 2012 20:54 #14044

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I guess when it comes down to it.. for me water fasting means just water.. I think the coffee or any other substance even a tiny bit of food inhibits the fasting process (for me at least because I am sensitive especially my digestive) .. and when nothing else in my system it seems the coffee would have even a stronger chemical effect on my whole system.. For those that can and do drink coffee on fasts im a bit jealous, but I just know my digestive system wouldn't put up with it.. I tried a little bit and had a bad reaction so it's just water for me :)
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The Big Coffee debate 03 Dec 2012 21:06 #14045

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agree that is the way to go.
Accept yourself as you are. Otherwise you will never see opportunity. You will not feel free to move toward it; you will feel you are not deserving.

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